This it a slightly modified version of a message that was posted at:
in regard to a claim by Bill Birkeland that I have given misleading information.
Re: The Longest Documented Upright Trees at Joggins:
Bill Stated: "Actually, another geologist, whom I know, has been looking into that in great detail and has inquired with the geologists, who have been studying the Joggins outcrop. In the 140-160 since Dawson (1855) wrote about the Joggins locality, none of the numerous geologists, including creationists, Coffin and Rupke, have found an upright trunk anywhere near 40 feet high. The highest one that has ever been observed by them was 5.7 meters (18.5 feet high)."
Randy: Bill: I don't mean to portray geologists as ignorant, but this information, along with the references, has been on my site now for the past 8 months -- and is available to any and all who care to inquire. But I will list the refs. again below -- along with more details for those who are interested.
1. The 25 foot upright tree was mentioned both by Lyell AND Dawson as being both "erect" and/or "piercing the beds of sandstone." For it was not only mentioned along with the 40 foot upright tree in Lyell's book, but also by Dawson in his bed by bed review. For all of those who care to verify this the references are:
22. Dawson, John W., 1855, Acadian Geology, p. 159; See also Acadian Geology, 1868, p. 188. And Note how few
details that Dawson gives with regard to the 40 foot tree. Note also that he DOES NOT say that it was prostrate or a
fallen over log.
23. Lyell, Sir Charles, "Life of Sir Charles Lyell," Vol. II, 1881, p. 65. See also: Bell, W.A., 1912,"Joggins Carboniferous
Section of Nova Scotia", Canada Geological Survey Summary Report; p. 328.
25. ***ibid. ref. 5, p. 26.***
Note: Ref 5 is: Dawson, 1854, Quart. Jour. Geol. Soc. London, Vol. 10, p.26. Regarding the Drifted Trunk deposits see pp. 4-27. This is where Dawson gives a bed by bed review of the strata and (in plain English) mentions a 25 foot erect tree. I can say that because I looked it up myself.
But... Schuchert also mentions the 25 foot upright "log" at Joggins; for example, on page 784 of his "Text-book of Geology" he states that:
"Standing logs have been admired by all geologists since Richard Brown discovered them in 1929 and the drawings of them by Logan, Lyell, and Dawson have been repeated in most text-books of Geology. They are from all lengths up to 25 feet."
From: Pirsson and Schuchert, A Text-Book of Geology, Part II, by Charles Schuchert, p. 784, 1915. John Wiley & Sons, Inc., New York
So we have Two Geologists and a Lawyer who disagree with you and all of the "other geologists" with whom you have been speaking. And in this case, it appears that the Lawyer may have been the one closest to the truth, for he also linked the 25 foot tree to a 40 foot one -- (in the same sentence) with the following words:
"...and some have been seen of 40 feet, piercing the beds of sandstone and terminating downwards in the same beds, usually coal.."23
I also give reference to a similar 38 foot upright tree that was found in England. The ref is on my web page at www.earthage.org See "Fossil Forests" of Nova Scotia, Part 1
See also: www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199702/0115.html
See also: Niklas, K.J. Predicting the height of fossil plant remains: An allometric approach to an old problem: American Journal of Botany 1994 vol. 81, pp 1235-1243; where I am told that there is reference to a 12 meter upright fossil tree. I do not have this myself and so I cannot assert with confidence that this is correct. Perhaps someone here would care to look it up and report on it.
Note also that Rupke gives reference to a 25 meter upright tree (or on that was approx. 80 feet long).
I also have in my possession a drawing of a 42+ foot
tree that was found in Craigleith, Scotland, in 1826 (imbedded in a 200 foot
thick series of alternating sandstones and shales) and that is pictured at an
angle of (approx) 30 degrees to the horizontal strata that it crosses; and it
crosses about 10 different layers of strata that are each between about 8 inches
to 2.5 feet in thickness. The only way such a tree could remain in its
diagonal position to the strata is if it was either being held up by a cliff
face (which was not the case in this instance) or if it was floating in an
oblique position while it was being buried, and thus indicating an extremely
rapid rate of burial.-- and which appears to be the case in this instance.
Post # 82 at: http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=7&t=116&m=85#85
According to Bill Birkeland's opinion, neither Dawson nor Lyell had first-hand knowledge of the 40 foot upright tree at Joggins, but rather that they obtained their information from Dr. Abraham Gesner -- who also visited this section, and published a book about his findings (in 1836) and who also reported seeing a forty foot fossil tree on p. 159 of his book on the Geology and Mineralogy of Nova Scotia..